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outlander_forum***WARNING: This post and discussion may contain spoilers for anyone who is not current with the Starz series Outlander (including seasons 1 and 2) or who has not read the first three books in the series.***
This thread is for discussing episode 302 of Outlander. Please limit your comments to what happened in the episode. If you wish to explore how the episode differed from the book, please do so on the show-book deviation thread.
Episode 302 (September 17, 2017) – “Surrender” written by Anne Kenney, directed by Jennifer Getzinger
Synopsis: Hiding in a cave, Jamie leads a lonely life until Lallybroch is threatened by redcoats pursing the elusive Jacobite traitor. In Boston, Claire and Frank struggle to coexist in a marriage haunted by the ghost of Jamie.
Have at it, people! Did you like the episode? Thoughts, impressions, quibbles, highlights and lowlights?
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Date: 2017-09-17 07:41 pm (UTC)Another very strong episode for Sam Heughan as Jamie -- who still manages to say so much with very little actual dialogue. Sam conveyed beautifully the depths of Jamie's emptiness and loss.
Most heart-breaking lines: Claire, when she turns to Frank in bed to initiate sex and says to him "I miss my husband" (because we all know which husband she's missing -- sorry Frank); and Ian, when he is explaining how he still feel pains from his missing leg, and Fergus will likely always feel pain from his missing hand, and then says to Jamie "Claire was your heart." Runner-up goes to Frank when he tells Claire "When I'm with you, I'm with you. When you're with me, you're with him."
Also,I'm bracing for all the Frank haters complaining about 2 Claire-Frank sex scenes...
I can understand why they opted to give Mary McNab more prominence in the show. I'll likely discuss this more in the other thread.
Fergus! And his voice has dropped! As much as I am eagerly looking forward to seeing César Domboy take on the role of adult Fergus, I will miss Romann Berrux terribly. He's been wonderful in that role. Plus it was sweet to hear him use Scottish words like "bairn" when speaking.
One major question: Where the HELL were all of Jenny and Ian's other chidren? The only ones we saw were wee Jamie and baby Ian. In fact, when Jamie takes Ian, he says something like "He should meet his brother" -- singular -- where is the rest of the brood? Jenny and Ian had 5 other (still living) children by the time Ian was born -- there was zero evidence of that in this episode, and it really bothered me.
It was really good to hear Claire's voice-over again near the end of the episode.
Joe Abernathy!!!
Racism and misogyny! Yay 1950s!!!
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Date: 2017-09-18 01:05 pm (UTC)The episdoe titles -- 301 was The Battle Joined, and 302 Surrender. So in 301, we had Jamie and Claire metaphorically battling to survive -- joining the fight to simply live/stay alive (Jamie) and to build a new life (Claire and also Frank). In 302, they've surrendered in many ways. Jamie lives, but he isn't truly alive. He's lost his culture and his family -- Claire, obviously, but also in many ways his immediate family because his presence endangers them. Claire and Frank meanwhile have surrendered to the realization that they can't make things work between them. Frank surrenders to the realization that he's lost her -- he still wants her, but not the way she is now; Claire was willing to pretend with him for her own needs, but gives up on that as well. So everyone has surrendered to their situation and finds a way to move forward.
I hope we see way more of Joe Abernathy in the next few episodes. Also, was I the only one sort of surprised by how he pronounced his last name? I've always read it as A-bernathy -- with the emphasis on the first syllable. In the show it was pronounced Aber-NAthy -- with the emphasis on the 3rd syllable. Not that it matters much -- I'm sure there will be bigger debate over how to pronounce Marsali's name...
I thought this episode did brilliantly at driving home the impact/effect both Claire's and Jamie's pining for each other was having on those around them.
Romann Berrux as Fergus was really, really good in this episode. He echoed Murtagh at times, you could feel his pain at having been abandoned by the only real parents he'd known -- Claire and Jamie. Especially the loss of Jamie -- who while still physically present, was completely absent. Yet it is Fergus who brings Jamie back.
And kudos have to go to Steven Cree and Laura Donnelly (Ian and Jenny Murray). Donnelly is always so strong in her portrayal of Jenny, but in this episode, she really shines. It was her hurt and tears at the very end of the episode, when she's turned Jamie in to the British, that had me tearing up.
I've seen a fair number of comments on social media (Twitter) from "fans" bitching about how "no one" cares about this stuff -- just get Claire and Jamie back together, and that baffles me. You can't expect two people to be apart for 20 years and then get back together and be just like they were. Look how Claire is for Frank after only 3 years away! I figure most of the people who make these sorts of comments are not book readers, but man, I just want to slap them. Honestly -- the 20 years apart could have been a standalone season given how much happens to both during those years. But undoubtedly, a significant portion of the fanbase would not have tolerated that at all.
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Date: 2017-09-21 03:45 pm (UTC)That said, I do understand the importance of the between-time. It's important. I'm sure I'd be pissed if they were skipping things, too, and I'll probably appreciate all of it when I do a full-season look over in the end. I'm just impatient now.
(And also really unimpressed with Caitriona Balfe at the moment, but that's not really the writers' fault.)
I agree that Sam Heughan is making me care about Jamie's story, when in the book, I just wanted to punch him in his depressed little face. Not right away, but eventually.
Oh, Fergus. I love Fergus. The actor is adorable, and does such an excellent job.
I also may have stared at the screen with the thought, "Wait. They have more children than this, right? Am I forgetting the timeline of their kids? No. Ian's one of the youngest? Are they just not writing the others? Because they're not unimportant. I mean, they're not all integral, but hey!" It's a personal pet peeve when shows either A) forget kids exist in order to have their parents go off and do cool things, or B) completely write out the kids when they existed in a different canon. (I liked how the writers for Wynonna Earp dealt with the baby, since it wasn't meant to be a thing, it just, well, oops?)
In spite of all my "oh my god put them in the same place!" I think I'd be incredibly pissed if the awkwardness and not-working between Jamie and Claire at the start wasn't there. If it isn't there. There's a tense there, I'm sure. That was one of the lovelier parts of the book.
Then again, "Voyager" just has so much happen that I have no idea how all of it's going to fit. "Dragonfly in Amber" did a decent job of cutting (though not certain things, fuck them) because while there were a lot of details, they weren't all necessary to the plot or future plots. "Voyager" has an insane number of details, and almost all of them are necessary. I'm worried that other things will be cut in order for the build up to be well-done.
HMMMMM. Oh, man.
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Date: 2017-09-21 10:03 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-09-21 11:48 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2017-09-18 01:17 pm (UTC)Sam is killing me. Jamie is a shell of a man here. So broken and so sad. He doesn't even respond to Jenny when she tried talking to him when he hacked away at the deer. I'd say major depression for sure. He's barely functioning at all. :(
Agree to all your heart-breaking lines. Man. This is depressing. But in a good way? I mean, I'm loving the season so far but yes, it's sadder than ever.
I read a review where I agreed with most points... hmm, gonna try and find it again. I am not great at putting my own thoughts out here so.. need some help.
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Date: 2017-09-18 03:44 pm (UTC)Jamie being so broken. Sam is very talented but the way he convey Jamies pain and despair is something else. Even after 6 years he is still so broken, but how can he be anything else when he had to hide and live all alone. Sure, he visits his family but he's not letting them in on his pain. He's been alone with his own thoughts and guilt for too long. There's not just the loss of Claire I don't think. But the loss of all his fellow warriors. Perhaps guilt over surviving. He surely didn't mean to.
I do wish that we had seen more of his homecoming. Having Jenny tend to his wounds and trying to get him back from the dead, basically some much needed TLC even if he was incapable of responding to it. Just really love their sibling bond and I feel we don't get enough of it. And add some Fergus and Ian in that picture too.
I am not sure what to say about Fergus. I get his frustrations of seeing Jamie being "a coward". He's not the man(father) he knows and love. But I was a little annoyed by Fergus ranting. But I also get it. So I'm having mixed feelings. What he said about killing a man with the knife, that was something Murtagh had said wasn't it? He spent a lot of time with him, he must miss him a lot too. But I just knew something would happen with that gun. don't play with guns! But I thought for sure someone would get mortally injured so *phew* for that. Although it did lead to the RedCoats coming.
Seeing Jamie with the newborn baby. Aww. Jenny is right, he looks good with a bairn in his arms. When the soldiers came inside I was almost afraid Jamie would smother the baby had it cried. I think that was the first little reality check Jamie got. That was a close call. And him being discovered there would have been the end to them all.
But of course, seeing what happened to Fergus and finally see what he has to lose right there... that was a huge awakening. I loved that scene. "there you are milord" *sobs* Not to mention when he brakes down in front of Jenny.
Absolutely loved Ians talk about the loss of a limb and the phantom pain. He was also spot on that Jamie got his heart amputated and it HURTS.
So. He sort of found a way back to himself again. At least a little but the only way he thinks he can help his family to be safe was to let them turn him in and get that reward money. So the ambush worked and he got captured but Jenny's "I'll never forgive you" was heartbreaking. She probably meant that albeit differently than what the soldiers might think. And Jamies face... Geez.
And now I'm forgetting Mary. Also very heartbreaking. Jamie not being able to look at her but pretending that was the way he always kiss... *sighs* And then the tears. Mary understood of course. I'm glad if they could find a little comfort together. It wasn't love, just two people needing another human beings touch.
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Date: 2017-09-18 04:31 pm (UTC)That will quite likely still be shown, as a flashback. At least, that's what happens in the book!
Some of what you touch on are some of the minor changes from the book -- the ones I didn't discuss in the other post. In the book, it was actually Jamie who fired the gun at the ravens. If they had kept that, it might have made the later scene with Mary even more impactful -- she'd be taking the blame for Jamie, so Jamie might have felt more indebted to her later in the cave. In the book, I can't even remember what happens re: the gun -- I'm pretty sure no one came forward with it and the soldiers get "scared" off by wee Jamie's rage before they can fully search the place. I think in the book, Jamie keeps it on him the whole time he's hiding in the closet with baby Ian.
Yeah, Jenny's lines at the end when Jamie's captured, you can tell everything she said she meant, but not the way the soldiers would think she meant. That's another small deviation from the book -- in Voyager, they got a trusted tenant to turn Jamie in. I actually think what they did in the show makes more sense!
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Date: 2017-09-19 03:17 pm (UTC)I'm a little nervous book lovers will hate this season. So many seem to have Voyager as their fav book but just as many also seem to have real trouble with some events in the book so I'm sitting here wondering how the show will go about those issues and what all book readers will say. *eep* I just want everyone to love it obviously.
But at lest it seems to me most were ok with the Mary issue. So far Frank gets the most talk back. i.e how much they seem to have changed him because it makes Claire look bad instead.
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Date: 2017-09-19 04:17 pm (UTC)I think Voyager is most people's fave book solely because of the Jamie-Claire reunion. I actually prefer the later books in the series -- I hope the show makes it that far!
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Date: 2017-09-19 03:11 pm (UTC)I think she did try to connect with Frank with the sex. I mean, I've read that many thought her selfish and using Frank and yes, to a degree she did that but I honestly think she wanted to TRY and connect with him. She just couldn't do it without imagining Jamie. It was him she missed after all.
You said it perfectly, they both had to surrender to the fact that they CAN'T find a way back to each other in that way. It's tragic and very sad. For both of them. But they can both give love to Brianna. So at least she has that comfort and love.
And we got the strong and independet Claire back in this episode. Going to med school. I can't wait to see more of that. I also know Joe will become a great friend so I'm looking foward to see that too.