Episode 303 General Discussion ***SPOILERS***

[jo]

***WARNING: This post and discussion may contain spoilers for anyone who is not current with the Starz series Outlander (including seasons 1 and 2) or who has not read the first three books in the series.***

This thread is for discussing episode 303 of Outlander. Please limit your comments to what happened in the episode. If you wish to explore how the episode differed from the book, please do so on the show-book deviation thread.

Episode 303 (September 24, 2017) -- "All Debts Paid" written by Matthew B. Roberts, directed by Brendan Maher

Synopsis: In prison, Jamie discovers that an old foe has become the warden - and has the power to make his life hell. Claire and Frank both put their best foot forward in marriage, but an uninvited guest shatters the illusion.

Have at it, people! Did you like the episode? Thoughts, impressions, quibbles, highlights and lowlights?

Comments

[jo]

I really feel for the producers/writers of this series. They have to contend with such a diverse fanbase. There are of course the book readers, and I would split that group into at least 2 sub-groups. You have the "sane" book readers -- those who understand that an adaptation is going to deviate from the source for a variety of reasons; then you have the fundies -- the book fundamentalists. Just like Bible fundamentalists, for them the book is sacrosanct, and any change is just... blasphemy. And then there are the show-only people -- a far less demanding group, perhaps, since they have fewer expectations, but at the same time you have to make sure that what is included from the books makes enough sense to someone who's not read the books. For a book reader, some things can be sort of implied, but someone who's not read the books might not get everything -- if you get my meaning.

Anyway, episode 303... I've seen quite a few complaints that this season (eps. 1 and 2) have felt rushed to a lot of people, but I have to say that for me, this is the first episode that had that feeling about it. I think a big part of that is the total lack of development of the Joe Abernathy-Claire friendship. I really expected to see way more of Joe in this episode. And also, Claire's whole medical school thing -- she enrolled last week and graduated this week. It's only near the end that Frank refers to the fact that she was hardly ever about because of school and then after, her work.

The whole Claire-Frank dynamic in this one was painful. All the pretense was stripped away. All the hurt and resentment and wounds were laid bare. Claire is not very likeable here. I can just imagine all the Frank haters out there watching this one. I will have more to say about this in the other thread, but suffice it to say that Claire comes across here as wanting to eat her cake and have it too. She and Frank agreed that they (or at least Frank) could see others, as long as they were discreet about it, then she is horribly upset when he does. Shocked almost -- what did she expect? That he would just sit around and be as miserable as she obviously is?

Still with the Randalls -- how sad is Brianna's 16th birthday party? Has she no friends? Who has a 16th birthday party with only their parents?

Meanwhile, back in the 18th century...

MURTAGH!!!! That is all I am saying here. Everything else will be on the other thread.

I know there was some bitching about the casting of David Berry as Lord John Grey (LJG) because he is too tall and not blond, but he was excellent. I heard him interviewed and he said he'd read at least some of the LJG books (maybe all) and I think he really captured the essence of that character, even if he is too tall and not blond.

The Ardsmuir prison stuff was also somewhat rushed -- but it felt maybe less so than the Claire-Frank stuff. They kept the key bits and did them well enough. The first time I watched the episode, I thought they'd rushed the friendship between Jamie and LJG, but on rewatch, it was done well enough. I quite liked how we were always reminded of the balance of power between LJG and Jamie, and how that would shift slightly when the former needed help from the latter. Sam and David play well off each other. It will be good to see this develop in future seasons.

Small things I liked: Jamie smelling the thistle and it reminding him of Claire, but he can't bring himself to actually say her name, not even to Murtagh. Jamie recounting the details of his meals with LJG to the other prisoners.

Things that confused me. In the season 3 official trailer, there were scenes of Jamie on a rocky beach calling out Claire's name, however, there was nothing like that in the episode -- and I'm sure that was from when he escaped to go look for the gold and the white witch. Will it be in a flashback later in the season? Also, I remember that they announced they had cast the role of Hector, who is the special person LJG lost at Culloden. Yet again, we didn't see any of that so I'm wondering if that just got cut due to length? Or maybe that scene in the trailer is from some other part of the season? But I can't think what -- unless it's a flashback, when Jamie tells Claire about his escape from prison to see if she was the white witch.

[suzy]

I need to see the episode again because I watched without subtitles and I didn't catch everything they said. So these are just first impressions.

I also felt everything in this episode was too rushed. Especially Claire's storyline.

Jamie's was ok I suppose compared to Claires but I still feel I needed/wanted something more of his prison time before LJG turned up to show WHY Jamie had all the other prisoners respect. I'm guessing there's more to it in the book. And also, I didn't get the gold/witch thing at all. But yeah, subtitles missing. Surely the scene you mention with Jamie shouting for Claire in a promo/preview was from the 3 day escape? Yup. I'm confused as well. So perhaps we'll see that later? Or it's a deleted scene?

Not getting to the Frank/Claire bits yet but I also felt I wanted more of Joe and Clairs deepening friendship. Her med school years went by way too fast. And based on what Brianna said in 2x13 I also missed scenes with just Frank and Brianna. Where are their bonding father/daughter scenes?

So. These are my "complaints". I mean, not really complaints but I simply wanted more. Like 90 min episodes. Or, why not put it in 16 episodes again like in the first season? I get it, people just want the reunion already but speaking for myself and as a non book reader I do want to see their lives apart as well.

While lovely I am not watching this show only for Claire/Jamie sex scenes like so many seem to do. I am getting real annoyed at reviews that constantly start with nope, no sexy times this episode either like that's all that matters. *sighs*

As a side note, I don't really understand why we get these too short vingettes of Claires time when we already basically know what happened since episode 2x13. They showed too much of those vingettes there already in that case. I think that's why I expected more especially in this episode when it comes to Claire. At the same time I also understand they can't just show what happens with Jamie and forget about Claire during this time. But it doesn't feel even.

Ok, I'm adding some Frank thoughts now as well. I am not hating on Frank but I see why Frank haters have or will have problems with this episode. They show more understanding of Franks pain than that of Claires. And that seems wrong to me. I do see her pain but I feel more sympathy with Frank and somehow I don't feel we should have that. I know enough of book Frank to also get that. Had I not know anything at all about book Frank I am honestly not sure what I would feel towards Claire here.

[jo]

I still feel I needed/wanted something more of his prison time before LJG turned up to show WHY Jamie had all the other prisoners respect. I'm guessing there's more to it in the book.

Actually, not really. The prison part starts with the arrival of the new governor, Lord John Grey. I think the out-going governor in the show alluded to why Jamie was respected -- because he's a natural leader, and because of his reputation during the uprising, mostly. What they didn't explain is why he's called MacDubh (MacDoo) -- it means son of the black -- his father was called Black Brian.

I will happily explain the gold/witch part to you in detail if that's still necessary once you've seen it with subtitles. Let me know!

Yes -- the Frank-Brianna bonding scenes. That was 100% left out and given how much Bree loved her dad in ep 213, that should have been highlighted.

[suzy]

Ah, ok. Then I missed half of what the governor said as well. *lol* An explanation to the nickname would have been nice though. I had no idea what it meant.

[suzy]

Please, do explain. I could hear everything second time but I still don't get it. Was he just a confused old man talking and mixing things up in his head or was it some sort of premonition?

I get that they were looking for the Frensh gold and I get that Jamie thought the witch might have meant Claire. Where did his talk about the MacKenzie come in? He mentioned Colum, Dougul and Ellen and everyone is dead.

[suzy]

on rewatch, it was done well enough

I loved the episode on second watch. It just shows how much details you miss on first watch. (Apart from not hearing what they say!)

I didn't feel it was so rushed anymore. Still wanted more of course but I wasn't rushed. I got a better feel for Claire second time. I had focused too much on Frank and his bitterness the first time. Now it was all Claire for me. I had tears forming when she said goodbye to Frank. It's usually Jamie that bring that emotion in me.

Loved the Lord John/Jamie scenes.

And yes, Murtagh. Love him and I'm glad he didn't die. I am sad they didn't get to say farewell when they closed the prison. :(

[jo]

This is largely from the book since they left most of this out in the show. Most of what Duncan says to Jamie is deranged and incoherent, but some of what he says makes some sense to Jamie. Duncan says the gold is cursed, it was given by the white witch for the King's son but the cause is lost and the white witch will not let the gold be given to a coward. Jamie's heart leaps at hearing the words 'white witch' and he asks Duncan who the white witch is. Duncan says the white witch is a soul-eater. She is death. (Doesn't sound like Claire, right?) Just before he dies Jamie asks him where the gold is. Duncan's eyes fly open and he says in Gaelic that the white witch will come for a Mackenzie, and then he dies. Lord John asks Jamie to tell him what Duncan said. Jamie tells John that he spoke a lot of gibberish about a white witch and seals (silkies).

Three days later Jamie escapes from Ardsmuir. Jamie walks to the part of the coast where the seals live that Duncan had spoken of. Duncan said he treasure was hidden on the third of three islands, the one furthest from shore and nearly a mile out. Jamie finds the hidden passage down through the cliffs which Duncan had called 'Ellen's tower', which allows Jamie to get down to the beach and only quarter of a mile out from the island. He swims out to the island and discovers a hollow space in the centre. Inside is a wooden box filled with 205 ancient gold and silver coins, and a small leather pouch with diamonds, pearls, emeralds and sapphires inside. Jamie puts the treasure back in its hiding place and swims back to the mainland.

Once recaptured, Jamie refuses to tell LJG where he went or if he found the treasure. Grey punishes him at first, but then decides to start building up their relationship. Eventually, Jamie does tell him that when Duncan Kerr spoke of a 'white witch' he thought that Duncan may have been speaking of Claire and he had gone to search for her. He tells John that he found a small box containing a few gold and silver coins and a small leather pouch filled with jewels, and that he threw the box into the sea. John asks for proof of his tale and Jamie produces a good sized sapphire which he gives to John. John than asks Jamie to swear on a Bible as to the truth of his tale and Jamie does so with some very clever wording that ensures he doesn't lie.

Some of Duncan's words make more sense later in the story, and even in future books, but if I say too much, it might ruin a major surprise for you later in the series!

[suzy]

So he did find a small treassure and not just one gem? Interesting.

Thanks! I hope we'll get to see some of that and whatever surprise you're refering to.

[jo]

I am sad they didn't get to say farewell when they closed the prison.

If they do with Murtagh what I think they're going to do with Murtagh, I'm pretty sure we'll see him again next season. I have a feeling they're going to replace another character from the books with Murtagh -- because the character in question is someone Jamie meets in prison, and we didn't have that character in the show.

It's funny, but on rewatch for me, the Boston part of the story felt really, really rushed. We didn't get anything about Claire's med school experience, or how her friendship with Joe developed, or about how Frank took over the main childcare of Brianna because Claire was busy with studies and work at the hospital (which is sort of key because it explains why Frank is so sure Brianna will choose to go to England with him, and also why Brianna has such strong feelings for Frank in ep. 213). There was so much left on on that front. Maybe the producers should have asked Starz for a longer episode for that one -- another 15-20 minutes would have made a big difference!

[jo]

Oh, I'm pretty sure we will... :)

[suzy]

Yes, I had expected more with Joe. Like I said, we already knew a lot of Claires story from episode 2x13. Surely, they could show us more of the bits we didn't know? Like Joe! They managed that with Lord John, albeit still just the bare minimum. I'm guessing becuase LJG will turn up more later we needed a more proper introduction?

Still, it would have been nice to see a different side to Claire. While better at my second viewing she comes off as too bitter and not very sympathetic. She did love Frank in her own way I think and I dunno, having her confide in Joe would have been nice. To see her side of the story and not just Franks.

Yeah, maybe it's wishful thinking but Starz should always grant extra 15-20 min! I wonder if there's lot of deleted scenes and we will get them on the DVD. I liked what they did previously with 2(?) episodes and put them into the episode so we got a longer and fuller version.

Oh, about Murtagh. I've read others speculate on that subject. I don't know that other person so for me I would gladly take Murtagh over him. However... is that plausable with Murtagh's age? Would that work? How old is Murtagh anyway?

[jo]

Lord John is definitely a more important character than Joe Abernathy. He will be back in this current season, and he's a fairly regular character in the subsequent books, esp. the later ones.

But Joe pops up again too. After Claire goes back to Jamie (I don't think that's a spoiler!), he becomes sort of a surrogate father figure to Bree. There's a fair bit of him in book 4, and again at least one of the more recent books.

Matt B. Roberts, one of the executive producers and writers of the show (he wrote ep. 303), was answering questions on Twitter yesterday, and someone asked about getting longer episodes. His reply hinted that they should wait and see, so it sounds as if that might happen for one, or maybe more than one ? episode this season. Possibly the famous print shop episode maybe? And or the finale?

I discuss the Murtagh theory in the book-show deviation thread. I don't really know how old Murtagh is supposed to be, I don't think they ever discuss that in the books. In the books, both of Jamie's parents are born in 1691, so they were 29-30 when Jamie is born in 1721. Likely Murtagh would be about the same age of Jamie's parents I guess, since he had courted Ellen MacKenzie. So at Culloden, in 1746, Jamie would have been just shy of his 25th birthday, so Murtagh in his early to mid-50s?